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One of the best interviews given by Pope Francis:
You can find it here -http://www.repubblica.it/…/pope_s_conversation_with_scalf…/…
How the Church Will Change
A dialogue between Francis and La Repubblica's founder, Eugenio
Scalfari: "Starting from the Second Vatican Council, open to modern
culture". The conversation in the Vatican after the Pope's letter to La
Repubblica: "Convert you? Proselytism is solemn nonsense. You have to
meet people and listen to them." 01 ottobre 2013
by EUGENIO SCALFARI...
Pope Francis told me: "The most serious of the evils that afflict the
world these days are youth unemployment and the loneliness of the old.
The old need care and companionship; the young need work and hope but
have neither one nor the other, and the problem is they don't even look
for them any more.
They have been crushed by the present. You tell me:
can you live crushed under the weight of the present? Without a memory
of the past and without the desire to look ahead to the future by
building something, a future, a family?
Can you go on like this?
This,
to me, is the most urgent problem that the Church is facing."
Your Holiness, I say, it is largely a political and economic problem for states, governments, political parties, trade unions.
"Yes, you are right, but it also concerns the Church, in fact,
particularly the Church because this situation does not hurt only bodies
but also souls. The Church must feel responsible for both souls and
bodies."
Your Holiness, you say that the Church must feel
responsible. Should I conclude that the Church is not aware of this
problem and that you will steer it in this direction?
"To a large
extent that awareness is there, but not sufficiently. I want it to be
more so. It is not the only problem that we face, but it is the most
urgent and the most dramatic."
The meeting with Pope Francis took
place last Tuesday at his home in Santa Marta, in a small bare room
with a table and five or six chairs and a painting on the wall. It had
been preceded by a phone call I will never forget as long as I live.
It was half past two in the afternoon. My phone rings and in a somewhat
shaky voice my secretary tells me: "I have the Pope on the line. I'll
put him through immediately."
I was still stunned when I heard
the voice of His Holiness on the other end of a the line saying, "Hello,
this is Pope Francis." "Hello Your Holiness", I say and then, "I am
shocked I did not expect you to call me." "Why so surprised? You wrote
me a letter asking to meet me in person. I had the same wish, so I'm
calling to fix an appointment. Let me look at my diary: I can't do
Wednesday, nor Monday, would Tuesday suit you?"
I answer, that's fine.
"The time is a little awkward, three in the afternoon, is that okay?
Otherwise it'll have to be another day." Your Holiness, the time is
fine. "So we agree: Tuesday 24 at 3 o'clock. At Santa Marta. You have to
come into the door at the Sant'Uffizio."
I don't know how to end
this call and let myself go, saying: "Can I embrace you by phone?" "Of
course, a hug from me too. Then we will do it in person, goodbye."
And here I am. The Pope comes in and shakes my hand, and we sit down.
The Pope smiles and says: "Some of my colleagues who know you told me
that you will try to convert me."
It's a joke, I tell him. My friends think it is you want to convert me.
He smiles again and replies: "Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes
no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and
improve our knowledge of the world around us.
Sometimes after a meeting I
want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover
new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the
circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer
together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead
towards the Good."
Your Holiness, is there is a single vision of the Good? And who decides what it is?
"Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good."
Your Holiness, you wrote that in your letter to me. The conscience is
autonomous, you said, and everyone must obey his conscience. I think
that's one of the most courageous steps taken by a Pope.
"And I
repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must
choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That
would be enough to make the world a better place."
Is the Church doing that?
"Yes, that is the purpose of our mission: to identify the material and
immaterial needs of the people and try to meet them as we can. Do you
know what agape is?"
Yes, I know.
"It is love of others, as
our Lord preached. It is not proselytizing, it is love. Love for one's
neighbor, that leavening that serves the common good."
Love your neighbor as yourself.
"Exactly so."
Jesus in his preaching said that agape, love for others, is the only way to love God. Correct me if I'm wrong.
"You're not wrong. The Son of God became incarnate in order to instill
the feeling of brotherhood in the souls of men. All are brothers and all
children of God. Abba, as he called the Father. I will show you the
way, he said. Follow me and you will find the Father and you will all be
his children and he will take delight in you. Agape, the love of each
one of us for the other, from the closest to the furthest, is in fact
the only way that Jesus has given us to find the way of salvation and of
the Beatitudes."
However, as we said, Jesus told us that love
for one's neighbor is equal to what we have for ourselves. So what many
call narcissism is recognized as valid, positive, to the same extent as
the other. We've talked a lot about this aspect.
"I don't like the
word narcissism", the Pope said, "it indicates an excessive love for
oneself and this is not good, it can produce serious damage not only to
the soul of those affected but also in relationship with others, with
the society in which one lives. The real trouble is that those most
affected by this - which is actually a kind of mental disorder - are
people who have a lot of power. Often bosses are narcissists".
Many church leaders have been.
"You know what I think about this? Heads of the Church have often been
narcissists, flattered and thrilled by their courtiers. The court is the
leprosy of the papacy."
The leprosy of the papacy, those were his exact words. But what is the court? Perhaps he is alluding to the curia?
"No, there are sometimes courtiers in the curia, but the curia as a
whole is another thing. It is what in an army is called the
quartermaster's office, it manages the services that serve the Holy See.
But it has one defect: it is Vatican-centric.
It sees and looks after
the interests of the Vatican, which are still, for the most part,
temporal interests. This Vatican-centric view neglects the world around
us. I do not share this view and I'll do everything I can to change it.
The Church is or should go back to being a community of God's people,
and priests, pastors and bishops who have the care of souls, are at the
service of the people of God.
The Church is this, a word not
surprisingly different from the Holy See, which has its own function,
important but at the service of the Church. I would not have been able
to have complete faith in God and in his Son if I had not been trained
in the Church, and if I had not had the good fortune of being in
Argentina, in a community without which I would not have become aware
myself and my faith. "
You heard your calling at a young age?
"No, not very young. My family wanted me to have a different
profession, to work, earn some money. I went to university. I also had a
teacher for whom I had a lot of respect and developed a friendship and
who was a fervent communist.
She often read Communist Party texts to me
and gave them to me to read. So I also got to know that very
materialistic conception. I remember that she also gave me the statement
from the American Communists in defense of the Rosenbergs, who had been
sentenced to death. The woman I'm talking about was later arrested,
tortured and killed by the dictatorship then ruling in Argentina."
Where you seduced by Communism?
"Her materialism had no hold over me. But learning about it through a
courageous and honest person was helpful. I realized a few things, an
aspect of the social, which I then found in the social doctrine of the
Church."
Liberation theology, which Pope John Paul II excommunicated, was widespread in Latin America.
"Yes, many of its members were Argentines."
Do you think it was right that the Pope fought against them?
"It certainly gave a political aspect to their theology, but many of them were believers and with a high concept of humanity."
Your Holiness, may I tell you something about my own cultural
background? I was raised by a mother who was a strict Catholic. At the
age of 12 I won a catechism contest held by all the parishes in Rome and
I was given a prize by the Vicariate.
I took communion on the first
Friday of every month, in other words, I was a practicing Catholic and a
true believer. But all that changed when I entered high school. I read,
among other philosophical texts that we studied, Descartes' "Discourse
on Method" and I was struck by the phrase, which has now become an icon,
"I think, therefore I am." The individual thus became the basis of
human existence, the seat of free thought.
"Descartes, however, never denied faith in a transcendent God."
That is true, but he laid the foundation for a very different vision
and I happened to follow that path, which later, supported by other
things I read, let me to a very different place.
"You, however, from what I understand, are a non-believer but not anti-clerical. They are two very different things."
True, I am not anticlerical, but I become so when I meet a clericalist.
He smiles and says, "It also happens to me that when I meet a
clericalist, I suddenly become anti-clerical. Clericalism should not
have anything to do with Christianity. St. Paul, who was the first to
speak to the Gentiles, the pagans, to believers in other religions, was
the first to teach us that."
Can I ask you, Your Holiness, which saints you feel closest to in your soul, those who have shaped your religious experience?
"St. Paul is the one who laid down the cornerstones of our religion and
our creed. You cannot be a conscious Christian without St. Paul. He
translated the teachings of Christ into a doctrinal structure that, even
with the additions of a vast number of thinkers, theologians and
pastors, has resisted and still exists after two thousand years.
Then
there are Augustine, Benedict and Thomas and Ignatius. Naturally
Francis. Do I need to explain why?"
Francis - I allow myself to
call him that because it is the Pope himself who suggests it by the way
he speaks, the way he smiles, with his exclamations of surprise and
understanding - looks at me as if to encourage me to ask questions
that are even more scandalous and embarrassing for those who guide the
Church.
So I ask him: you explained the importance of Paul and the role
he played, but I want to know which of those you named feels closer to
your soul?
"You're asking me for a ranking, but classifications are
for sports or things like that. I could tell you the name of the best
footballers in Argentina. But the saints..."
They say joke with knaves, you know the proverb?
"Exactly. But I'm not trying to a
void your question, because you didn't
ask me for ranking of their cultural and religious importance but who
is closest to my soul. So I'd say: Augustine and Francis."
Not Ignatius, from whose order you come?
"Ignatius, for understandable reasons, is the saint I know better than
any other. He founded our Order. I'd like to remind you that Carlo Maria
Martini also came from that order, someone who is very dear to me and
also to you. Jesuits were and still are the leavening - not the only
one but perhaps the most effective - of Catholicism: culture,
teaching, missionary work, loyalty to the Pope. But Ignatius who founded
the Society, was also a reformer and a mystic. Especially a mystic."
And you think that mystics have been important for the Church?
"They have been fundamental. A religion without mystics is a philosophy."
Do you have a mystical vocation?
"What do you think?"
I wouldn't think so.
"You're probably right. I love the mystics; Francis also was in many
aspects of his life, but I do not think I have the vocation and then we
must understand the deep meaning of that word.
The mystic manages to
strip himself of action, of facts, objectives and even the pastoral
mission and rises until he reaches communion with the Beatitudes. Brief
moments but which fill an entire life."
Has that ever happened to you?
"Rarely. For example, when the conclave elected me Pope. Before I
accepted I asked if I could spend a few minutes in the room next to the
one with the balcony overlooking the square.
My head was completely
empty and I was seized by a great anxiety. To make it go way and relax I
closed my eyes and made every thought disappear, even the thought of
refusing to accept the position, as the liturgical procedure allows.
I
closed my eyes and I no longer had any anxiety or emotion. At a certain
point I was filled with a great light. It lasted a moment, but to me it
seemed very long. Then the light faded, I got up suddenly and walked
into the room where the cardinals were waiting and the table on which
was the act of acceptance. I signed it, the Cardinal Camerlengo
countersigned it and then on the balcony there was the '"Habemus Papam".
We were silent for a moment, then I said: we were talking about the
saints that you feel closest to your soul and we were left with
Augustine. Will you tell me why you feel very close to him?
"Even
for my predecessor Augustine is a reference point.
That saint went
through many vicissitudes in his life and changed his doctrinal position
several times.
He also had harsh words for the Jews, which I never
shared. He wrote many books and what I think is most revealing of his
intellectual and spiritual intimacy are the "Confessions", which also
contain some manifestations of mysticism, but he is not, as many would
argue, a continuation of Paul. Indeed, he sees the Church and the faith
in very different ways than Paul, perhaps four centuries passed between
one and the other. "
What is the difference, Your Holiness?
"For me it lies in two substantial aspects. Augustine feels powerless in
the face of the immensity of God and the tasks that a Christian and a
bishop has to fulfill. In fact he was by no means powerless, but he felt
that his soul was always less than he wanted and needed it to be. And
then the grace dispensed by the Lord as a basic element of faith. Of
life.
Of the meaning of life. Someone who is not touched by grace may be
a person without blemish and without fear, as they say, but he will
never be like a person who has touched grace. This is Augustine's
insight."
Do you feel touched by grace?
"No one can know
that. Grace is not part of consciousness, it is the amount of light in
our souls, not knowledge nor reason. Even you, without knowing it, could
be touched by grace."
Without faith? A non-believer?
"Grace regards the soul."
I do not believe in the soul.
"You do not believe in it but you have one."
Your Holiness, you said that you have no intention of trying to convert me and I do not think you would succeed.
"We cannot know that, but I don't have any such intention."
And St. Francis?
"He's great because he is everything. He is a man who wants to do
things, wants to build, he founded an order and its rules, he is an
itinerant and a missionary, a poet and a prophet, he is mystical. He
found evil in himself and rooted it out. He loved nature, animals, the
blade of grass on the lawn and the birds flying in the sky.
But above
all he loved people, children, old people, women. He is the most shining
example of that agape we talked about earlier."
Your Holiness is
right, the description is perfect. But why did none of your
predecessors ever choose that name? And I believe that after you no one
else will choose it.
"We do not know that, let's not speculate about
the future. True, no one chose it before me. Here we face the problem
of problems.
Would you like something to drink?"
Thank you, maybe a glass of water.
He gets up, opens the door and asks someone in the entrance to bring
two glasses of water. He asks me if I want a coffee, I say no. The water
arrives. At the end of our conversation, my glass will be empty, but
his will remain full. He clears his throat and begins.
"Francis
wanted a mendicant order and an itinerant one.
Missionaries who wanted
to meet, listen, talk, help, to spread faith and love. Especially love.
And he dreamed of a poor Church that would take care of others, receive
material aid and use it to support others, with no concern for itself.
800 years have passed since then and times have changed, but the ideal
of a missionary, poor Church is still more than valid. This is still the
Church that Jesus and his disciples preached about."
You
Christians are now a minority. Even in Italy, which is known as the
pope's backyard. Practicing Catholics, according to some polls, are
between 8 and 15 percent. Those who say they are Catholic but in fact
are not very are about 20%. In the world, there are a billion Catholics
or more, and with other Christian churches there are over a billion and a
half, but the population of the planet is 6 or 7 billion people. There
are certainly many of you, especially in Africa and Latin America, but
you are a minority.
"We always have been but the issue today is not
that. Personally I think that being a minority is actually a strength.
We have to be a leavening of life and love and the leavening is
infinitely smaller than the mass of fruits, flowers and trees that are
born out of it. I believe I have already said that our goal is not to
proselytize but to listen to needs, desires and disappointments,
despair, hope.
We must restore hope to young people, help the old, be
open to the future, spread love. Be poor among the poor. We need to
include the excluded and preach peace. Vatican II, inspired by Pope Paul
VI and John, decided to look to the future with a modern spirit and to
be open to modern culture. The Council Fathers knew that being open to
modern culture meant religious ecumenism and dialogue with
non-believers. But afterwards very little was done in that direction. I
have the humility and ambition to want to do something."
Also
because - I allow myself to add - modern society throughout the world is
going through a period of deep crisis, not only economic but also
social and spiritual. At the beginning of our meeting you described a
generation crushed under the weight of the present. Even we
non-believers feel this almost anthropological weight. That is why we
want dialogue with believers and those who best represent them.
"I
don't know if I'm the best of those who represent them, but providence
has placed me at the head of the Church and the Diocese of Peter. I will
do what I can to fulfill the mandate that has been entrusted to me."
Jesus, as you pointed out, said: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Do you think that this has happened?
"Unfortunately, no. Selfishness has increased and love towards others declined."
So this is the goal that we have in common: at least to equalize the
intensity of these two kinds of love. Is your Church ready and equipped
to carry out this task?
"What do you think?"
I think love for
temporal power is still very strong within the Vatican walls and in the
institutional structure of the whole Church. I think that the
institution dominates the poor, missionary Church that you would like.
"In fact, that is the way it is, and in this area you cannot perform
miracles. Let me remind you that even Francis in his time held long
negotiations with the Roman hierarchy and the Pope to have the rules of
his order recognized. Eventually he got the approval but with profound
changes and compromises."
Will you have to follow the same path?
"I'm not Francis of Assisi and I do not have his strength and his
holiness. But I am the Bishop of Rome and Pope of the Catholic world.
The first thing I decided was to appoint a group of eight cardinals to
be my advisers. Not courtiers but wise people who share my own feelings.
This is the beginning of a Church with an organization that is not just
top-down but also horizontal. When Cardinal Martini talked about
focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it
would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."
And politics?
"Why do you ask? I have already said that the Church will not deal with politics."
But just a few days ago you appealed to Catholics to engage civilly and politically.
"I was not addressing only Catholics but all men of good will. I say
that politics is the most important of the civil activities and has its
own field of action, which is not that of religion.
Political
institutions are secular by definition and operate in independent
spheres. All my predecessors have said the same thing, for many years at
least, albeit with different accents.
I believe that Catholics involved
in politics carry the values of their religion within them, but have
the mature awareness and expertise to implement them. The Church will
never go beyond its task of expressing and disseminating its values, at
least as long as I'm here."
But that has not always being the case with the Church.
"It has almost never been the case. Often the Church as an institution
has been dominated by temporalism and many members and senior Catholic
leaders still feel this way.
But now let me ask you a question:
you, a secular non-believer in God, what do you believe in? You are a
writer and a man of thought. You believe in something, you must have a
dominant value. Don't answer me with words like honesty, seeking, the
vision of the common good, all important principles and values but that
is not what I am asking.
I am asking what you think is the essence of
the world, indeed the universe. You must ask yourself, of course, like
everyone else, who we are, where we come from, where we are going.
Even
children ask themselves these questions. And you?"
I am grateful for this question. The answer is this: I believe in Being, that is in the tissue from which forms, bodies arise.
"And I believe in God, not in a Catholic God, there is no Catholic God,
there is God and I believe in Jesus Christ, his incarnation. Jesus is
my teacher and my pastor, but God, the Father, Abba, is the light and
the Creator. This is my Being. Do you think we are very far apart?"
We are distant in our thinking, but similar as human beings,
unconsciously animated by our instincts that turn into impulses,
feelings and will, thought and reason. In this we are alike.
"But can you define what you call Being?"
Being is a fabric of energy. Chaotic but indestructible energy and
eternal chaos. Forms emerge from that energy when it reaches the point
of exploding. The forms have their own laws, their magnetic fields,
their chemical elements, which combine randomly, evolve, and are
eventually extinguished but their energy is not destroyed. Man is
probably the only animal endowed with thought, at least in our planet
and solar system. I said that he is driven by instincts and desires but I
would add that he also contains within himself a resonance, an echo, a
vocation of chaos.
"All right. I did not want you to give me a
summary of your philosophy and what you have told me is enough for me.
From my point of view, God is the light that illuminates the darkness,
even if it does not dissolve it, and a spark of divine light is within
each of us. In the letter I wrote to you, you will remember I said that
our species will end but the light of God will not end and at that point
it will invade all souls and it will all be in everyone."
Yes, I
remember it well. You said, "All the light will be in all souls" which -
if I may say so - gives more an image of immanence than of
transcendence.
"Transcendence remains because that light, all in
everything, transcends the universe and the species it inhabits at that
stage. But back to the present. We have made a step forward in our
dialogue. We have observed that in society and the world in which we
live selfishness has increased more than love for others, and that men
of good will must work, each with his own strengths and expertise, to
ensure that love for others increases until it is equal and possibly
exceeds love for oneself."
Once again, politics comes into the picture.
"Certainly. Personally I think so-called unrestrained liberalism only
makes the strong stronger and the weak weaker and excludes the most
excluded. We need great freedom, no discrimination, no demagoguery and a
lot of love. We need rules of conduct and also, if necessary, direct
intervention from the state to correct the more intolerable
inequalities."
Your Holiness, you are certainly a person of great
faith, touched by grace, animated by the desire to revive a pastoral,
missionary church that is renewed and not temporal. But from the way you
talk and from what I understand, you are and will be a revolutionary
pope. Half Jesuit, half a man of Francis, a combination that perhaps has
never been seen before. And then, you like "The Betrothed" by Manzoni,
Holderlin, Leopardi and especially Dostoevsky, the film "La Strada" and
"Prova d'orchestra" by Fellini, "Open City" by Rossellini and also the
film of Aldo Fabrizi .
"I like those because I watched them with my parents when I was a child."
There you are. May I recommend two recently released films? "Viva la
libertà " and the film on Fellini by Ettore Scola. I'm sure you'll like
them.
Regarding power, I say, you know that when I was 20 I spent a
month and a half in a spiritual retreat with the Jesuits? The Nazis were
in Rome and I had deserted from military service. That was punishable
by the death sentence. The Jesuits hid us on condition that we did
spiritual exercises the whole time that they kept us hidden.
"But is
it impossible to stand a month and a half of spiritual exercises?
" he
asks, amazed and amused. I will tell him more next time.
We
embrace. We climb the short staircase to the door. I tell the Pope there
is no need to accompany me but he waves that aside with a gesture. "We
will also discuss the role of women in the Church. Remember that the
Church (la chiesa) is feminine."
And if you like, we can also to talk about Pascal. I'd like to know what you think of that great soul.
"Give all your family my blessings and ask them to pray for me. Think of me, think of me often."
We shake hands and he stands with his two fingers raised in a blessing. I wave to him from the window.
This is Pope Francis. If the Church becomes like him and becomes what he wants it to be, it will be an epochal change.
(Translated from Italian to English by Kathryn Wallace)
